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Reparations Dialogue
Article that sparked Dialogue: Reparations must be paid
Posted By: ROOTSWOMAN
Date: 19, July 02, at 12:55 p.m.
On the subject of reperations, I do have some questions which beg to be answered in response to the following statement (and about reperations in general):
"If Europe (the Allies) could demand and receive reparations from Germany, then why can’t Africa and the African Diaspora not be able to demand and receive reparations from their former colonisers who had suffered far worse. Reparations, Africa and its Diaspora should insist, must be paid."
1)Though the above is PURE TRUTH, is this Global Supremist System/Order really designed to repair the damage due to the Afrikan Holocaust? This Order is sustained by the rape of lands, resources and peoples. Seeing that First Worlds are the most rich in resources, and understanding that this order cannot survive without them, will they ever not only let go...but repair and return what has been stolen? Will they make a move which ultimately leads to their own destruction?
2) Can they ever really REPAY us?
3) When has "massa" ever given us anything (whether rightfully ours or not) without DANGEROUS strings attached? Has not HIStory proven to us that he speaks with a FORKED TONGUE?
4) Let us say we get our reperations...and remaining cognizant of the economic pattern of consumerism (which we are guilty participants of ), what will we do differently with this newly aquired money? Many of us would simply reinvested into babylon, as we already do. If we look at the strength of the "Black Dollar" now and what we do with it, we get an idea of where and how and to whom we spend our monies with. WHat makes us think that as a collective, we would do any differently with reperations money? Based on our economic history, will we not just recycle right back to "massa's plantation"? What good will that do for US? What will we truly REPAIR with this money? How many will be willing to invest in our economic FREEDOM and towards Afrika?
5) Do we really need reperations to be economically independent? If the answer is yes, then why is it that we do not see among so many of our RICH Afrikan-american brothahz and sistahz (and Afrikans from the continent) no such move towards the upliftment of our people?
What makes us think that we since we have been westernized the the CORE, that all of sudden with reperation money we will miraculously become livicated towards economic independence and collective attitudes?
All these questions are not meant to deter us from demanding what is owed, but instead to make us THINK about the historical patterns and NATURE of the "enemy", not to mention our own historical patterns within his world.
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Posted By: Ayinde
Date: 19, July 02, at 2:08 p.m.
I repeated your questions and placed MY VIEWS below for clarity.
Question:
1)Though the above is PURE TRUTH, is this Global Supremist System/Order really designed to repair the damage due to the Afrikan Holocaust? This Order is sustained by the rape of lands, resources and peoples. Seeing that First Worlds are the most rich in resources, and understanding that this order cannot survive without them, will they ever not only let go...but repair and return what has been stolen? Will they make a move which ultimately leads to their own destruction?
Response:
No! They will not voluntarily pay. They will never be prepared to return all that was stolen, lost or destroyed.
Question:
2) Can they ever really REPAY us?
Response:
No! But that should not stop them from making the effort.
Question:
3) When has "massa" ever given us anything (whether rightfully ours or not) without DANGEROUS strings attached? Has not HIStory proven to us that he speaks with a FORKED TONGUE?
Response:
It does not matter how much forked tongues they have, there are enough people today who have very good command of languages and are sufficiently distrustful of World Leaders/Misleaders to see through their deceptions. Each time they mislead the debt is still to be paid. It is not paid until they come straight.
Question:
4) Let us say we get our reperations...and remaining cognizant of the economic pattern of consumerism (which we are guilty participants of ), what will we do differently with this newly aquired money? Many of us would simply reinvested into babylon, as we already do. If we look at the strength of the "Black Dollar" now and what we do with it, we get an idea of where and how and to whom we spend our monies with. WHat makes us think that as a collective, we would do any differently with reperations money? Based on our economic history, will we not just recycle right back to "massa's plantation"? What good will that do for US? What will we truly REPAIR with this money? How many will be willing to invest in our economic FREEDOM and towards Afrika?
Response:
Yes, many would simply spend it back into the system, which would profit the same anti-social people. That is one reason I find European Nations to be very foolish for not paying sooner. The longer they take the more aware Africans/other people will become and the less likely that the bulk of the funds would easily end up in their hands. This is also the reason these discussions are important. But wasteful Africans would not stop the few who are more aware from becoming comfortable enough to devote 100% of their time to education. Education makes the difference.
Question:
5) Do we really need reperations to be economically independent? If the answer is yes, then why is it that we do not see among so many of our RICH Afrikan-american brothahz and sistahz (and Afrikans from the continent) no such move towards the upliftment of our people?
What makes us think that we since we have been westernized the the CORE, that all of sudden with reperation money we will miraculously become livicated towards economic independence and collective attitudes?
Response:
No, we do not need reparations to be economically independent. Firstly, there is no such thing as economic independence. (for another discussion)
Although many Africans will waste their money, that is also their right. They must still pay as a way to bring relative 'economic closure' to the worst crime in humanity. This would help reduce their tremendous guilt-trip. As I said, there is no way they will pay the Trillions of dollars that should be paid but they must try. All people, Black or White, who profited from slavery, must pay compensation and that includes the Arabs and any rich descendants of the African Moors. Payment is a step in acknowledging a wrong was done.
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Posted By: ROOTSWOMAN
Date: 20, July 02, at 1:06 p.m.
Thank you brothah Ayinde for your CLEAR responses. Permit I to address a few:
"It does not matter how much forked tongues they have, there are enough people today who have very good command of languages and are sufficiently distrustful of World Leaders/Misleaders to see through their deceptions. Each time they mislead the debt is still to be paid. It is not paid until they come straight."
I very much agree. Here's my question though; is the debt they owe us only MONETARY? Can the hundreds of years of HELL truly be repaid and REPAIRED in monetary terms only? Let us assume they repay us, will this magically erase all the ills? Will it miraculously heal the inherent racist attitudes of (too) many? Will this truly be the genesis of new world attitudes towars the continuing Afrikan Holocaust? In assessing what is owed, how much and to whom, what time frame will we use? From what time period to what time period? What about the EXISTING AFRIKAN HOLOCAUST and SLAVERY that is STILL GOING ON AS WE SPEAK?
Another comment I would like to address:
"No, we do not need reparations to be economically independent. Firstly, there is no such thing as economic independence. (for another discussion)
Although many Africans will waste their money, that is also their right. They must still pay as a way to bring relative 'economic closure' to the worst crime in humanity. This would help reduce their tremendous guilt-trip. As I said, there is no way they will pay the Trillions of dollars that should be paid but they must try. All people, Black or White, who profited from slavery, must pay compensation and that includes the Arabs and any rich descendants of the African Moors. Payment is a step in acknowledging a wrong was done."
I would like to discuss the issue of economic independence. What do you mean there is no such thing? Perhaps if I clarify what I mean when I use the term it will give us a good starting point for our discussion.
What I mean by this term is that Afrikan Descendants, wherever they may be scattered throughout the Diaspora must RECYCLE our "Black Dollars" among ourselves FIRST. Our own businesses, schools, etc... Though Ethiopia opened its doors to "modernization" and trade with the Western World, it basically remained independent, meaning it did not prostitute itself to the west. When the Hebrew Israelites from ameriKKKa repatriated to Israel, they built their own communities, schools, businesses, etc...this makes one basically economically independent does it not? If one ownes their own land, produces their own resources, teaches the youths OURstory, recycles our monies among ourselves, is this not a form of economic independence? If we build our own communities with solar power then we are no longer slaves to paying bills/money to electric companies. These are but some examples of what I mean by "economic independence". Can this be acheived, and if not, WHY NOT? Why do we feel that we cannot be independent of "babylon"? Why do we feel this NEED to be "BABY-SAT" by the west?
Also, you mention that it would be "our right" to waste this reperations money. How so? I mean its our right to remain mentally enslaved but does it make it RIGHT? Its our right to deny our ancestors but does it make it RIGHT? It would be our RESPONSABILITY AND DUTY to honor our ancestors by RECYCLING the money among ourselves in the name of UPLIFTING ourselves from economic slavery would it not?! How could it be considered "economic closure" if this money does not REPAIR the collective? What would be "closed" if we continue to support this western PLANTATION? Would this ultimatetly not be a sort of "feel good" closure with no real benefit to the collective? How far can "feel good" money take us into building a United and Free Afrika? Would they really be freed of their "guilt trip" by handing us some dollars while continuing the rape of our lands, resources and peoples? How far will this guilt trip of theirs be satiated if the LIES of HIS-story continue to DESTROY the minds of our Peoples worldwide?
I agree with you that "payment is a step in acknowledging a wrong done" but keeping in mind my questions about how we would probably recycle this "reperations" money right back into THEIR POCKETS, and how we are all affected by modern consumerism, what wrong will we really be amending? So now we have money in our pockets...what about the continuing CULTURAL, SPIRITUAL AND EDUCATIONAL HOLOCAUST which continues to plague us? How realistic is it, in the present state of mind and economics, for us to think that this will not only REPAIR the damage done, but forward us towards UNITY and INDEPENCE?
Again, these questions are not meant to deter us from getting whats ours, but for us to THINK about what will be done with this money given the present state of affairs, mindsets, etc... My intentions are for us in this PRESENT time to THINK AHEAD while honoring our PAST.
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Posted By: Ayinde
Date: 20, July 02, at 3:45 p.m.
There are several concepts in your presentation that requires further examination. So I will be simply giving MY views as usual.
The debt is not only about money but since money is the highest material value of their misinformed system then they must pay from what they value the most. Money is a start, POWER/CONTROL is what they must 'surrender' but this power is as a result of the use/abuse of money. They can only be stripped of power (they will not surrender it) if and when there are more informed Africans who can devote more time towards education and not hustling for daily survival. Money could assist the MORE INFORMED Africans to develop mass media. Mass media is the means for regaining Political and Institutional freedom.
It is impossible to get Africans/Black people 'en masse' to concentrate their spending in Black institutions for the simple reason that most Africans have acquired Western taste and false values. If Africans can produce similar Western products to suit these acquired tastes, it would be too expensive for many depending on the region where they reside and the unavailability of resources to produce many products. The patent laws are a hindrance to this also. Blacks would also like to maximize the return on their investments and as such they would like Europeans to buy their products so it would be foolhardy to advocate a buy Black policy while expecting others to purchase from Africans. That is not what African/Human development should be about.
PERSONALLY, I would not advocate supporting a business simply because the owners were black or claim to be African conscious. I would advocate that people carefully study how they spend money and support institutions that promote better values.
To develop public awareness of Black Business calls for those who share similar ideas to own mass media with which to promote that awareness. Reparations can assist those who share this idea as they can develop media to facilitate this.
Africans do not have to remain dependent of European/American markets and institutions even without reparations but few Africans have developed the consciousness to be able to do without the many commercial distractions that keep people tied to these destructive institutions. Also, more aware Africans can influence change in the whole concept of business that could force corrupt 'western' institutions to change and foster better relations and partnerships that serve our mutual interest.
Africans cannot unite on the basis of race. No other people have been able to unite on that basis. People can realize similar ideas and values that serve their interest but given the fact that all people are at different stages of awareness, all people will never interpret things the same way and as such will not all agree on what may seem like simple matters.
I mentioned that it is people's right to waste, not that it is right.
We can advocate better values and those who choose would adopt better values, this also calls for mass media to be truly effective on a large scale. But still, people are quite free to waste and this should not be a consideration in whether they are paid reparations or not. One really cannot award compensation and dictate the use of it. (I am not saying that you implied this)
People's only DUTY is to do what they feel/understand is in their best interest and since people interpret what is in their best interest in different ways then people will have different ideas about ‘their duty’. It's all about awareness.
The discussions on these issues you are raising are quite important.
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Posted By: ROOTSWOMAN
Date: 21, July 02, at 1:46 p.m.
ALAFIA brothah Ayinde!
THANK YOU for this excellent line (CIRCLE) of reasoning! Let us continue in the same style we began, by addressing each point:
You stated:
"The debt is not only about money but since money is the highest material value of their misinformed system then they must pay from what they value the most. Money is a start, POWER/CONTROL is what they must 'surrender' but this power is as a result of the use/abuse of money. They can only be stripped of power (they will not surrender it) if and when there are more informed Africans who can devote more time towards education and not hustling for daily survival. Money could assist the MORE INFORMED Africans to develop mass media. Mass media is the means for regaining Political and Institutional freedom."
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE! YES I! They value their POCKET more than anything else. I suppose this would be akin to hitting the "bull's eye", yes? Hit them where it hurts the most.
Again, you state:
"It is impossible to get Africans/Black people 'en masse' to concentrate their spending in Black institutions for the simple reason that most Africans have acquired Western taste and false values. If Africans can produce similar Western products to suit these acquired tastes, it would be too expensive for many depending on the region where they reside and the unavailability of resources to produce many products. The patent laws are a hindrance to this also. Blacks would also like to maximize the return on their investments and as such they would like Europeans to buy their products so it would be foolhardy to advocate a buy Black policy while expecting others to purchase from Africans. That is not what African/Human development should be about.
One of the most important things we can do to truly REPAIR the damage done, is to RE-EDUCATE the collective. Because, like you say, most of us have aquired the taste for western products to suit our tastes (at the cost/sacrifice of our Ancient Tradiditons/Principles) then this seems one of the most important points to "tackle", meaning that RE-EDUCATION should find itself at the top of our "to do" list.
GIVE A MAN FISH AND YOU HAVE FED HIM FOR A DAY. TEACH A MAN TO FISH AND YOU HAVE FED HIM FOR A LIFETIME AND GENERATIONS TO COME!
I would agree that human development is not based solely on recycling resources and moneys ONLY among ourselves, but we should make US our own FIRST priority. Part of Garveyism is about supporting OURSELVES FIRST. Hence the reason why I used Ethiopia in my earlier discussion to demonstrate that one can still adhere to "modernization" without prostituting oneself to the west, without assimilating ourselves culturally and spiritually, while remaining LOYAL to ourselves and our Traditions FIRST AND FOREMOST. We can sell and trade our resources with the west without being enslaved to their System/Order, as our Ancestors have proven.
You state:
"To develop public awareness of Black Business calls for those who share similar ideas to own mass media with which to promote that awareness. Reparations can assist those who share this idea as they can develop media to facilitate this. Africans do not have to remain dependent of European/American markets and institutions even without reparations but few Africans have developed the consciousness to be able to do without the many commercial distractions that keep people tied to these destructive institutions. Also, more aware Africans can influence change in the whole concept of business that could force corrupt 'western' institutions to change and foster better relations and partnerships that serve our mutual interest."
TRUEEEEEEEE!!!!!!! ASHE!
Lastly, you state:
"We can advocate better values and those who choose would adopt better values, this also calls for mass media to be truly effective on a large scale. But still, people are quite free to waste and this should not be a consideration in whether they are paid reparations or not. One really cannot award compensation and dictate the use of it. (I am not saying that you implied this) People's only DUTY is to do what they feel/understand is in their best interest and since people interpret what is in their best interest in different ways then people will have different ideas about ‘their duty’. It's all about awareness."
I would agree that principly speaking, we cannot award compensation and dictate the use of it, but I feel we there should be a collective representation or Think Tank that discusses what is best for the COLLECTIVE as a WHOLE. This is not about individual compensation ONLY, but ultimately about COLLECTIVE COMPENSATION, therefore what is best for the WHOLE should be at the forefront of our discussions and SOLUTIONS. Like you so clearly state, its all about awareness, hence the reason why I ask these questions and pray that REPERATIONS is dealt with as a COLLECTIVE, thinking way ahead while remaining loyal to our ancestral duties.
Again my brothah, I respectfully submit my view points and thank you for yours.
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Posted By: Ayinde
Date: 21, July 02, at 3:23 p.m.
Greetings again:
You stated:
"One of the most important things we can do to truly REPAIR the damage done, is to RE-EDUCATE the collective. Because, like you say, most of us have acquired the taste for western products to suit our tastes (at the cost/sacrifice of our Ancient Traditions/Principles) then this seems one of the most important points to "tackle", meaning that RE-EDUCATION should find itself at the top of our "to do" list."
Response:
Yes, and this re-education that targets Africans is really necessary for all people and it should be available to all people so at least others who are classified as non-Africans can have the opportunity to realize their connectedness to the best of OUR (all people's) ancient traditions and values.
You stated:
"I would agree that human development is not based solely on recycling resources and moneys ONLY among ourselves, but we should make US our own FIRST priority. Part of Garveyism is about supporting OURSELVES FIRST. Hence the reason why I used Ethiopia in my earlier discussion to demonstrate that one can still adhere to "modernization" without prostituting oneself to the west, without assimilating ourselves culturally and spiritually, while remaining LOYAL to ourselves and our Traditions FIRST AND FOREMOST. We can sell and trade our resources with the west without being enslaved to their System/Order, as our Ancestors have proven."
Response:
I have tremendous respect for Garvey and many who attempted to address these issues in the past, but most of all I have respect for myself so I used my own senses and thought about these matters years ago. Here again I will continue giving MY views while maintaining respect for all who worked before.
The idea of supporting ‘OURSELVES FIRST’ has to be appreciated on another level for the meaning to be fair and equitable to all people.
I am not about simply repeating poor European ideas of us along racial lines. The best of us are our core values that respects all of life, and in so defining us we can realize that supporting ourselves really means supporting all who demonstrate that they have developed or are developing around values that truly respects all manner of life/people. One's race bears a direct relation to how we see ourselves but ourselves must be appreciated to mean the awareness and values that qualifies us as just people. So in defining my SELF I look to values. Respect for our ancestors are integral in realizing the best values.
It may be that most Africans may realize these core developmental values before other people and as such the support may be for those Africans that have demonstrated the willingness to pursue higher values. But in saying this, the values are necessary for any race of people and if others demonstrate the values that first respect our ancestors and by extension each other then they also qualify for my support. This to me is what supporting MYSELF truly represents. I am not supporting anyone on the basis of his or her race, but I will support everyone who have demonstrated the respect for all of our ancestry and by extension all of life. Respect is about remembering the right order of how things evolved/developed.
It is in this order of respect I am aware that Africans were the first to point us in this equitable direction and even during our struggles Africans have always pointed to the need to recapture our history. So it is only fitting that those Africans who have labored in this truthful exercise be recognized before anyone else. I will not support a White person speaking these truths to people if I am aware that there are Africans who have been doing this work and have not been properly acknowledged. I would not support them giving the impression that they are trying to teach Africans or people in general something that Africans were already teaching. But if they pay respect each and every time to the many Africans who have labored in this field and they ensure that these people are properly rewarded for their efforts, then I may support them.
It is the awareness and values that make the difference today as many Black people are drunk with corruption as they delve deeper into the cesspool of wants and greed and are bent on showing that they can be as corrupt and materially wealthy like the European examples. It is by defining our values that we can discern OURSELVES from among the corruption of all else including people of our own race.
Lastly, you stated:
"I would agree that principly speaking, we cannot award compensation and dictate the use of it, but I feel we there should be a collective representation or Think Tank that discusses what is best for the COLLECTIVE as a WHOLE. This is not about individual compensation ONLY, but ultimately about COLLECTIVE COMPENSATION, therefore what is best for the WHOLE should be at the forefront of our discussions and SOLUTIONS. Like you so clearly state, its all about awareness, hence the reason why I ask these questions and pray that REPERATIONS is dealt with as a COLLECTIVE, thinking way ahead while remaining loyal to our ancestral duties."
Response:
Yes there should be a collective think tank but first, in each and every country where Africans reside there should be discussions on these issues and they should select representatives from amongst the interested African community to participate in a global think tank. Unfortunately here again Media access is important as in many countries this discussion is discouraged and Africans abroad are not aware that they are not harnessing our best ideas because of this. Too many people are ignorant about the issues surrounding reparations and as a result may be dissatisfied with anything agreed upon on their behalf.
MEDIA access is the key and it is for this as well as other reasons I support the development of alternative media that has access to many people in diverse regions. MEDIA, MEDIA, MEDIA. There is no way to over emphasize this. The lack of mass media access to persons who are better informed is the reason these issues take so long to be resolved.
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